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Hey man cool off. He didn't call you racist. As he said he was trying to rile you up. Guess he did it!

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Lol nah, I'm not that riled up - go reread the reverse discrimination topic if you want to see me riled up.  That was more of a polite way for me to tell him that he can shove that up his ass and GTFO since I really don't understand on what he's basing all these claims on, besides ignorance, though I suppose if he's just trying to rile me up, exagguration is all it is.  Not sure why he would try to, though.  Seems pointless.

Post edited at 11:39 pm on Aug. 19, 2008 by Bud2400

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One time we ordered pizza. And the Italian delivery guy gave her (my mom) a dirty look cause she only gave him a tooney(2 bux). She was so pissed she called to file a complaint.

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How much was the actual order? If it was something like $20 that you gave a $2 tip on, I'd say the delivery guy is an ass, although if it was $50, I could understand (I'd probably say and express "... okay *weird, piercing look* have a good night" if that were the case - nothing rude, but just kind of "hmm, fine then."  Hard to explain, really).

Personally, I think when it comes to waiting tables, delivering pizzas, etc., stiffs should be expected and being rude to others for it is rude in itself, and many other drivers would agree that making an ass out of yourself over a stiff / low tip is out of line. I wouldn't try using that single example to stereotype all of us delivery drivers.

The best course of action when stiffed is to simply leave and forget about it. Thing is, when you see as many people from a certain group (such as blacks) not tip, you start to stereotype. I've strugged with that myself and the way I handle it now is that I made a list of all the people who stiffed me or tipped me below 5% of the order total. If they're not on the list, I'll always give them the benefit of the doubt. It seems to work very well.

Post edited at 11:33 pm on Aug. 19, 2008 by Bud2400

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Quote: from Springs at 12:59 pm on Aug. 19, 2008

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wtf

they made a survey on tipping

are you fucking serious

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Actually, "they" is me.  I personally gathered all the data myself and organized it into what you see.  The stereotype that blacks don't tip worth a damn is widespread in the service industry and if any of you check out some of the links I've posted, you'd see that, too.  My interest was seeing how much validity this stereotype had.

Moreover, seeing how I do work for tips, it's something very relevent and interesting for me, and anyone else who works, has worked, or ever will work in a profession where tips make up a good portion their income will find it interesting as well.

Call a small issue like tipping silly and whatnot, although it's these small things that reflect society at large.  If you refuse to deal with the details, nothing will ever get done.  You can't attack a broad issue by only treating the surface of the problem; you have to get deep and explore every little thing.

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never really though tof it as an issue

interesting perspective though

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He's the man is what they must say
what way could i give up the up way
when i show love to the sky
when you give up it's like saying eff it and die

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well i've never heard the stereotype before today to be honest with you

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Neither had I prior to my becoming a pizza delivery driver over a year ago.  The stereotype isn't very widespread outside the service industry, but it's widespread in it throughout the entire United States.  The fact that a server / driver from New York, Florida, Minnesota, Washington, California, Texas, and Colorado could all agree with each other that black customers don't tip very well, and more than likely form the stereotypes on their own as I did prior to seeing what others had to see about it online, should give you some idea of the scope of the whole thing.

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my pops always raied me to tip someone, cause me and him both know we'd be mad as fuck if someone didn't tip

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Of course.  Many blacks do tip.  In fact, about half the blacks I recorded tipped me.  Thing is, it was mentioned in a study I linked to that blacks not only tip on a flat rate far more than other races (ie. $2 instead of 20%), but they also define what's a "proper tip" differently, usually on the lower end of what the rest of society would consider a proper tip.

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never really though tof it as an issue

interesting perspective though

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It does say a few things, though - the main thing being that it reflects the lack of integration black Americans as a whole have with the rest of society.  It also shows how black Americans don't feel any pressure to tip from people they don't consider black, and since many of those who are black don't put much pressure on tipping, tipping just doesn't get done or there is a tip, it's generally small.  This, in my opinion, reflects a form of self-segregation more than anything else - for blacks aren't listening to non-blacks, but only other blacks.

In order to really understand what I'm saying by tipping is a problem, you have to see what it reflects and says about black people.  From my perspective, I see tipping as only a part of the overall problems blacks in the United States collectively face today.  Thing is, I'm just exploring this tiny piece of it for everything it's worth.

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The study found that 63 percent of blacks and 30 percent of whites [bdidn't understand that the standard restaurant tip in the United States is 15 to 20 percent. The difference between how blacks and whites view tipping has serious ramifications for restaurants, including lawsuits and lost profits, Williams reports

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Quite true. The study I linked to by Professor Lynn of Cornell University went into that point in depth.

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He says cultural elements -- blacks have avoided sit-down restaurants in favor of take out or self-service eateries -- institutionalized racism that exists in the restaurant industry and education about tipping are all behind the discrepancy. "How do people learn about tipping? If you don't go, you don't know."

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Now that's something I don't personally believe because if you look at my statistics - blacks making up 8% of my area's population but making up 20% of my customer base - you'll notice that the average individual black is far more likely statistically to order a pizza delivery than any individual of any other race. In terms of sitdown restaurants, they may be correct, however tipping is certainly not alien to blacks, especially when it comes to pizza delivery, so I believe my results have contradicted this point.

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Those servers who believe that black Americans do not tip well may then provide inferior service to black customers, which then in turn leads to lower tips--in a self-fulfilling prophecy. (That is one thesis presented by Lynn and Thomas-Haysbert.) Potential tipping differences aside, understanding the interpersonal and organizational rituals that govern the dining experience of black Americans may help to better explain discrimination on the part of some restaurant personnel

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The Lynn this article mentioned is the Professor Lynn who's study I linked to. I'm pretty familiar with what he's said about it as I've read through that study, and a couple others he's produced, a few times. And Lynn may very well be right when it comes to everything overall, but when you set up certain controls like I did in my survey to ensure that blacks receive the same level of service that all races do, you'll notice the tipping by blacks doesn't improve. My results completely contradicts that point, saying that blacks aren't going to tip, or tip very well, no matter what.

Though to really understand Lynn's point, you have to realize that he mentioned that blacks get the sense that no server will treat them with respect after multiple visits, and thus just learn to not tip or not tip very well. So even when faced with good service, they still won't tip very well. This, in essence, is stereotyping on the part of blacks, and which is why I believe that Lynn may still be right and raises many good points.

Thing you must really consider, though, is that if blacks won't tip well no matter what, then why would anyone waste the time on them? What would be the point and benefit? That's the cold hard truth right there. To point and cry "the server started it!" or "the black man started it!" is pretty useless in my opinion.

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As the discourse at the tipping Web site suggests, many restaurant workers rely on stereotypical knowledge schemas to guide their treatment of black Americans as customers. Many of the threads focus on racial stereotypes regarding tipping behavior, the shared understanding of and language used by white American restaurant workers regarding restaurant race relations, and the justification for differential and discriminatory treatment given to black American customers . As stated above, if restaurant personnel believe that black Americans tip less and are therefore less deserving of equal service, servers may give inferior service in the first place, thus eliciting the very tipping practices they abhor.

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My response for this is the exact same as for the last point.

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you may need to educate them by saying something like, "It's customary to tip the delivery person."

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Have you tried that?  

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I actually have. Some delivery driver made this website which is dedicated to informing others on tipping etiquette. With the forum that site has, it's essentially the pizza delivery driver's version of bitterwaitress.com. What I linked you to is what they call the "stiffer letter," which is a letter that briefly explains that you should tip the pizza delivery driver, why, what a proper tip is, a quick clarification on the delivery charge, the benefits tipping would give to the customer, and yeah, which is to be sent to the addresses of the people who have stiffed you. So I tried it just to see what would happen (I sent about 50 of those letters, and mainly to blacks seeing how they make the majority of all my stiffs) and to be honest, it really didn't do much to influence those who didn't tip me. It influenced one Somali family to tipping me $1 instead of $0, but that's all I noticed.

Post edited at 1:08 am on Aug. 20, 2008 by Bud2400

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Ah, but thanks to things such as self-segregation and 'blackness' many blacks DO live in a society where tipping is not the norm.  

Though I'm sure that the odds of you being able to glean enough information during your short encounter with them to tell if they are part of that bullshit are pretty low, it is still something that should be thrown out there.

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While it's hard to say how much these guys exhibit "blackness," it is a fair point that much of this reflects self-segregation.

After all, most people would feel pressured to tip judging by whether or not others are tipping. But blacks don't. Many blacks seem to disregard the fact that non-blacks tip and only pay attention to what their own group (blacks as a whole, of course) has to say about it. Hence a form of self-segregation. And even then, if you have a single black who's saying you should tip like in the example from this blog, broadly speaking they'll be endorsing something "white" and be casted off as a "boojie ass nigga." This is all very broadly speaking, mind you, but my statistics and examples by others on this topic do seem to reflect that sentiment.

Post edited at 2:01 am on Aug. 20, 2008 by Bud2400

On the topic of ethnicity and tipping, it's a common belief over here that Asians who eat out are less likely to tip. This is true, especially for large parties, where you work your arse off and get nothing. It is such a common occurance that many of ther servers whom I work with hate to serve an Asian table.  

On a different note, what was your driving force to conduct/publish this analysis?? u got something against blacks that you went out of ur way to prove something negative about them??

I take care of my own hair, or have a friend do it so I don't pay something like that.

Though to clarify a bit on my tipping. before I moved I would always go to this cafe, around the same time on a regular basis. It would usually be the same waitress, and I would usually spend about 12-15 dollars on food, and I'd tip around 3-5 dollars.

There was this one place where the food was bad, the waiter was a dick, I'll admit I was tempted to not tip at all. I did tip though the food was 20 dollars, and I left 2 dollars as a tip. I only go under 20% if I didn't like the place then I'd never go back, or like I said before if I don't have the money to do so(which rarely happens).

Generally I tip 20% if it's a new or okay place. Less if I don't like the place at all. Over 20 if I do like the place, people, and I go somewhat often.

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Not sure what exactly you're talking about as only a few of my topics are really about race; hardly the majority.  Have you really looked through all my topics I've ever posted?  It's really simple to access from my profile.  

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This is true, you do have many other topics covering many other subjects.

However, out of those that are race-oriented, 7 out of 9 of your last topics (that were on your first page of topics I could see) were concerning African Americans in one way or another. I mean come on.. "If Black People Are Poor Due to Racism and White Privilege... Then why are so many white people poor?" That could be the opening line to your Klan rally.

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Though considering that I've been doing this race survey (collecting all the data I used for this) for the last 4 months, issues of races, blacks in particular, have been on my mind and as a result, you see a greater frequency of topics on it since that time period.  

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True, I haven't been here for that long so all I've seen is your current obsession with negros.

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There's nothing racist about this topic or what I said in it - if you actually read it, you'd notice that I try telling people that they shouldn't take the general tendency I highlighted and apply it to all black individuals, making it a stereotype.  I highlighted it because it's such a huge difference from all the other races, which is a problem for workers of the service industry and creates / reinforces negative images and stereotypes against blacks.  It also suggests an extreme lack of integration among blacks in the United States.  All in all, these stats I've shown are bad for black people; and then you call me racist for asking for speculations on what the problem is and how we may go about some solutions? .

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I know, if you had actually read my response, you would have seen that I said the topic itself was not racist. And you don't really seem to be calling for solutions... all you are doing is in fact "reinforces negative images and stereotypes against blacks." Many people out there do not have open minds (many of them are white). When they see statistics like this, instead of wondering "Why is this like this? What caused this? How can we change it?" the majority of them think "fuck those lazy niggers." You know this to be true, and if you don't think that's true, you're just kidding yourself.

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But hey, if you'd rather attack me and label me as a racist for showing everybody the results of what I found, go ahead.  It's far easier doing that than actually discussing the topic at hand, I'll give you that.

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Well looks like I succeeded at getting you riled up. You are without a doubt not a racist, I won't argue that. However, you certainly do have some feelings of prejudice towards African Americans, seeing as you haven't "compiled any statistics" or made other threads inquiring about certain negative natures of Hispanics, Chinese-Americans, Native Americans, or whites.

However, it wouldn't suprise me that blacks didn't tip you much, you're white, and clearly not down with the brothers and sisters. Black people have a way of just telling who's a brother and who's not and you're clearly not a brother.

I would be interested in seeing the inverse situation take place; a black person delivering and see the differences between whites and blacks tipping, whether the race of the driver would affect the stats at all, or not.

So Bud, go pull a Robert Downey Jr. and then come back in 4 months, would ya?

Post edited at 10:57 am on Aug. 20, 2008 by ButtSechs69

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"It's not about a salary, it's all about reality"
KRS-One