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In house wait staff are usually only paid $2.63/hour. That's right, that is minimum wage for waitstaff, so they are ENTITLED to a tip.

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I know that and I'm certainly not denying that waitstaffs should get any tips.  If anything, I'd back them up and claim that they do.  

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What I'm saying is although you are in a poorly paying job, it does pay minimum wage

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Do you refuse to acknowledge that parts where I've told you that many aren't?  I can refer you to places talking about that issue quite a bit.

http://tipthepizzaguy.com/discussion/thread.php?num=7541&ip=1

Or how Papa John's is going to the tip-credit system nationwide.

http://tipthepizzaguy.com/discussion/thread.php?num=11252&ip=1

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and in fact, contrary to your op, the price of delivery does cover your wages. This is not the case with wait staff.

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You mean a small reimbursement that covers gas, and that's separate from the delivery charge?  And with all that aside, minimum wage for putting heavy wear and tear on a car (that could easily be avoided doing any other kind of minimum wage job), subjecting ourselves to traffic and all the potential dangers that can come with that, and putting ourselves out in the open to who knows what may be lurking out there?

Believe me, if you'd tip a server at a restaurant, you should tip a pizza delivery driver.  That's not to downplay on the kind of job waitstaffs must endure, mind you.

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Although I always tip the delivery person, I don't consider it necessary, whereas I do consider tipping wairstaff necessary, as their service is not included in the price of the meal.

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Neither is the delivery charge.  I'd suggest reading up on what I've written about it.  Many drivers will get $0.85 on reimbursement with a $2.20 delivery charge, although the delivery charge really isn't to cover reimbursement as reimbursement has existed long before delivery charges have; rather, it's to cover the rising price of food and ingredients.

Though while I know you said you tip pizza delivery drivers, if you truly believe that all they only need to be reimbursed for their service, then it's essentially the equivalent of "tipping" a server a few cents for the "wear and tear" on their legs, arms, and mind.

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I think there are times when a tip is common, but optional, such as a delivery person, and times when a tip should not be considered optional, such as a delivery person.

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Wait, what?

The way I see it, if you tip a server, you ought to tip a delivery driver.  You can agree to disagree there, but if you do, then at least consider and read some of the things I have said about it.

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"There is no point to this post. I see it as racist and unnecessary."

 
And this is what's wrong with the whole pc movement and how it prevents intelligent exchange of thought.  Although I don't agree with all the op has posted, he presented some interesting information and has asked to open a discussion about it.
Your knee jerk accusation that it is racist shuts down any chance at an intelligent conversation.  That one points out a particular issue about a certain demographic, does not make it a racist/sexist/?ist topic.
For example, say a study was done that shows most crime is committed my males.  Would it be sexist to open a discussion as to why males commit a disproportionate amount of crime?  of course not.  But when the subject is a politically protected class, then all of a sudden we have to ignore the facts, lest we be accused of being "racist" for engaging in intelligent discourse.  And thus, the dumbing down of society.

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Moreover, do not forget my many statements throughout the OP where I said and repeated myself many times that although according to my statistics you have a much higher chance of being stiffed by a black person, that does not mean that all black people will stiff you.  I phrased it in such a way in the title to stimulate discussion, but the fact that I constantly say "the collective cannot apply to the individual, just as the individual cannot apply to the collective, though they influence each other greatly" just goes to show how quick some people will be to jump to racism, when I, in fact, endorsed treating all people as individuals while recognizing that certain general tendencies do exist.

Obviously there is something within self-defined "black" culture that causes this regardless of economic status.  

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Interesting data set. I'd be interested if we could get similar surveys from across the nation though how to coordinate that I don't know.

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That would certainly be the next step and I think I may just have an idea as I do have some contact with pizza delivery drivers all across the US, and a few in Australia.  The only concern I'd have is the reliability, but I suppose it'd be far more accurate than my data set alone given the many variations different areas have.  Hmm...

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Obviously there is something within self-defined "black" culture that causes this regardless of economic status.

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Couldn't agree more, although it can't be just one single thing.  If it were that simple, the entire issue of why this happens wouldn't be so complex.  Moreover, I'm not even too sure of how much of this can even be confronted or helped.

1 and 2 seem to be related to being ill-informed on the topic.  3  seems a rather more serious concern.

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1. Some blacks are not informed that tipping is a percentage

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The study at Cornell University I linked to also mentioned that blacks are far likely to tip at a flat rate than as a percentage. However, you see that kinda stuff and compare it to my data, and you notice that about half of all blacks don't tip at all. Thus this is only a piece of the overall problem.
 

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2. They feel some resentment for paying for service which they view as "extra" thus they feel taken advantage of?

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That could be a big part of it. Not sure if "resentment" is the right word for it, but more like not understanding why you'd pay a cost that isn't explicitly listed on the bill. Aussies and Brits feel the same way about that, too. They don't see the sense in tipping, and without members of their own race for blacks or nationality for Aussies and Brits making a point to tip and establish a moral obligation to tip, it just doesn't get done. Thus the bad tips among blacks.

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3. It is used as a purposeful way to harm or attack their server with no repercussions.

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Where'd you see that? If anything, I saw complete arrogance more than wishing harm on others in some of those topics. The thought of me being white and blacks just not tipping white people sprung up in my mind a couple times, but I dismissed it when I started seeing other blacks having similar problems with shitty tipping blacks.

Post edited at 8:25 am on Aug. 19, 2008 by Bud2400

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Quote: from Elm at 8:17 am on Aug. 19, 2008

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1. Some blacks are not informed that tipping is a percentage

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The study at Cornell University I linked to also mentioned that blacks are far likely to tip at a flat rate than as a percentage.  However, you see that kinda stuff and compare it to my data, and you notice that about half of all blacks don't tip at all.  Thus this is only a piece of the overall problem.
 

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2. They feel some resentment for paying for service which they view as "extra" thus they feel taken advantage of?

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That could be a big part of it.  Not sure if "resentment" is the right word for it, but more like not understanding why you'd pay a cost that isn't explicitly listed on the bill.  Aussies and Brits feel the same way about that, too.  They don't see the sense in tipping, and without members of their own race for blacks or nationality for Aussies and Brits making a point to tip and establish a moral obligation to tip, it just doesn't get done.  Thus the bad tips among blacks.

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3. It is used as a purposeful way to harm or attack their server with no repercussions.

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Where'd you see that?  If anything, I saw complete arrogance more than wishing harm on others in some of those topics.  The thought of me being white and blacks just not tipping white people sprung up in my mind a couple times, but I dismissed it when I started seeing other blacks having similar problems with shitty tipping blacks.

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Since we agree with 1 and 2 I'll concentrate on 3.

I don't believe the wish to cause harm or purposefully slight the server has anything to do with the race of the server.  It is just a mean to put another person down in order to feel better about oneself.  It is common among those who have been themselves put down on or view themselves as having that been done to them.  Since there exists a victim mentality in parts of black culture (I'd argue the negative parts) than this can be seen as perhaps a cause.

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I don't believe the wish to cause harm or purposefully slight the server has anything to do with the race of the server. It is just a mean to put another person down in order to feel better about oneself. It is common among those who have been themselves put down on or view themselves as having that been done to them. Since there exists a victim mentality in parts of black culture (I'd argue the negative parts) than this can be seen as perhaps a cause.

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It could be, although I'm wary of that argument.  It just doesn't seem to fit the feel from most blacks I've encountered regarding that.  I mean, most aren't openly hostile about whatever victimization they've felt for either their ancestors, families, or themselves.  You won't even necessarily get an attitude from them about it.  It's just a matter of their perception, why they think they are where they are, etc.  Although there are a few bad apples in the bunch who will take it out on others, but I believe these to be in the minority of blacks.

Personally, I'm not sure how much it would have to do with that or just plain inconsideration.

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Quote: from Elm at 8:27 am on Aug. 19, 2008

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I don't believe the wish to cause harm or purposefully slight the server has anything to do with the race of the server.  It is just a mean to put another person down in order to feel better about oneself.  It is common among those who have been themselves put down on or view themselves as having that been done to them.  Since there exists a victim mentality in parts of black culture (I'd argue the negative parts) than this can be seen as perhaps a cause.

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It could be, although I'm wary of that argument.  It just doesn't seem to fit the feel from most blacks I've encountered regarding that.  I mean, most aren't openly hostile about whatever victimization they've felt for either their ancestors, families, or themselves.  You won't even necessarily get an attitude from them about it.  It's just a matter of their perception, why they think they are where they are, etc.  Although there are a few bad apples in the bunch who will take it out on others, but I believe these to be in the minority of blacks.

Personally, I'm not sure how much it would have to do with that or just plain inconsideration.

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Often it isn't a conscience effort, sometimes it is.  Some of the comments in the 1st and 3rd linked discussion board, from blacks themselves regarding why they don't tip came across as openly hostile to the idea of tipping and some made comments understanding they aren't tipping and that it causes financial harm, but either cared not or seemed to savor it.

How large a factor any of these plays is unknown as one isn't going to hand a survey entitled "why do you tip badly" to a person who just tipped one badly.

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Often it isn't a conscience effort, sometimes it is.

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I've noticed blacks in larger groups give me that sort of thing than blacks who are alone or with another person or two.  Considering that, from personal experience as well as what I've seen and heard, blacks tend to self-segregate from the other races and congegate in larger, black only groups more often than other races, I think such attitude and that message comes across much more easily.  Such mentality often works in similar ways to other large groups who self identify with some kind of attribute.

And even if that did hold true, generally when somebody gets a pizza, they're by themselves or with a few other people and not at some sort of party or large gathering.  So I'm not sure how much this may apply to my data collected.

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Some of the comments in the 1st and 3rd linked discussion board, from blacks themselves regarding why they don't tip came across as openly hostile to the idea of tipping and some made comments understanding they aren't tipping and that it causes financial harm, but either cared not or seemed to savor it.

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Yeah, I read some of that, and I'm not sure whether it's what you said or just hostility at being told that they should tip.  It's funny how offended some people can react over being told to tip.  You often see claims of extortion from these types of people.

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How large a factor any of these plays is unknown as one isn't going to hand a survey entitled "why do you tip badly" to a person who just tipped one badly.

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Even then, it still wouldn't be entirely accurate as nobody really will claim something negative about them and will likely use some form of justification as a reason instead of the real reason itself.

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Quote: from scalywag66 at 4:53 am on Aug. 19, 2008

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lol

I dont agree with all that

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That black people don't tip?

For those who don't agree and don't want to read everything, I'll make it short and quick.

Observe:

And try to tell me that black people collectively tip like whites and other races.

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Duhhhhh, maybe cause theirs more white people living in the United states

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~If you don't stand for something, You'll fall for anything~

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Duhhhhh, maybe cause theirs more white people living in the United states

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But unlike Brits and Aussies, American blacks do not live in a society where tipping is not the norm.

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Ah, but thanks to things such as self-segregation and 'blackness' many blacks DO live in a society where tipping is not the norm.

Though I'm sure that the odds of you being able to glean enough information during your short encounter with them to tell if they are part of that bullshit are pretty low, it is still something that should be thrown out there.

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whoisabs i'm not sure
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